Purging my soul…one blog at a time.

Exactly How Does God Discipline?

I read a book a while back where the author was attempting to illustrate godly correction. He quoted Hebrews 12:6-10 (“he whom the Lord loves He chastens/disciplines”) and then made the following statement: “God does not hesitate to hurt us if this is necessary to help us become mature sons and daughters of His.” He then told a personal story of when his two year old son had foot surgery. Each night, the father had to stretch the foot as a type of physical therapy. Of course, it was tremendously painful to the son, but in the end the father said it was “worth it.” The surgery was a success. At that point, I stopped reading and thought to myself, “hurt us to help us?” I just can’t agree with that. But I wasn’t sure why. So, this is my answer.

Most people assume that God’s correction is painful. And sometimes maybe that’s the case…but I’m not really buying it. Here’s why. Godly discipline and punishment are not synonymous. And God never said that they needed to be. Hebrews 12 talks of love correcting or disciplining us, but that verse also should be taken within the entire context of the New Testament. For example, 1 Corinthians 2:9-14 (NLT) gives us another clue to the puzzle. “That is what the Scriptures mean when they say, ’No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.’ But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets…And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us…we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.”

The question is not does God discipline, but how. To me, God’s discipline is radically different than the father/son illustration above. And 1 Corinthians backs me up here. First, no plan is ever more important than people – “hurt” for the sake of correction is NOT okay with God. Secondly, if God does use natural circumstances to correct us, they are at best a second option. God’s first and foremost choice to adjust any Christian’s perspective is the Spirit of God speaking to our spirit. That’s “how we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.” That’s always God’s first choice and he doesn’t need to create painful circumstances to get our attention.

The problem with our understanding of God’s discipline is that we pass it through the grid of our own parenting – just like the author I quoted did. Plus, we derive a spiritual lesson from all personal circumstances. Some circumstances are so painful that if we don’t create “greater good” scenario from them, we can’t handle the pain. But when we say that God uses circumstances to get our attention, we are saying that he can’t get “close” enough to tell us otherwise. To relegate contact with believers to natural circumstances assumes that God is incapable of direct contact. Or worse yet, he doesn’t want direct contact or happily uses pain for our advancement even if another route exists.

See, Old Testament scholars sometimes talk about controlling metaphors in the Bible. These are ways or concepts of describing God that disclose his nature or personality that run through all of scripture. And Jesus picks these up as well. He’s not just any father, he’s the good Father. He’s not just any old shepherd, he’s the good shepherd. That’s the problem – when we hear that God is Father, we assume he is just like any other father. But he’s the good Father…and that means he does things in a way that the rest of us dad’s can not even grasp. That’s what the verses in Hebrews 12:7-10 are attempting to show. The good Father is not doing the “best he knows how” – he’s doing way more than that, bringing correction and discipline exclusive from harm. Jesus says the same thing: “If you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more…”

Let me use another father/child illustration in contrast to the first one. My oldest daughter is three. She’s conscientious and really tries to do what we ask of her. What would you think of me as a father if though I had the distinct option either to “hurt her in order to make her mature” or teach her personally how to be mature…but I still chose to hurt her? What if rather than conversationally teaching her about meekness, I back-handed her hoping to achieve the same affect. Make your stomach turn, huh? Mine too. The issue is in the choice. Many people who assume God uses circumstances, do so thinking that the Spirit speaking to our spirit is really not a viable option. But if it is, then direct communication is God’s desired method of disciplining you. 1 Corinthians says it is. And that doesn’t have to involve punishment…it never should.

March 28, 2008 - Posted by Sam | Christianity, God, Jesus Christ, children, dad, family, father, love, mother, parenting, religion, spirituality, theology | , , , , , , , , | 12 Comments

12 Comments »

  1. Another great post. I think part of the problem is that we usually don’t seek God to hear from Him thru spiritually discerned means since everything is going well for us. Our sin (disobedience and/or stupidity) catches up with us, produces pain, then we run to God to figure out whats going on. He, in His mercy, is quick to then tell us whats going on and teach us. However, since we actually hear from Him after the pain, we assume He had to hurt us to get our attention. In reality, we hurt ourselves and are just now ready to finally listen.

    Comment by Jamie | March 28, 2008 | Reply

  2. Thanks, Jamie – that’s an excellent addition to what I was saying. Turning to God after the pain leads people to assume that the pain was part of God’s design. Of course, like you said, the other option is to see the predicaments of life as generally caused by the outworking of our own personal decisions apart from God. For some reason, that viewpoint just isn’t as popular is it? :)

    Thanks for commenting.

    Comment by Sam | March 28, 2008 | Reply

  3. I respectfully disagree with you that God would not use pain as a means to discipline us. Letting the scripture interpret itself and staying within the passage, it CLEARLY tells us that God uses pain(unless you think a scorging is pleasant? and “enduring” has in mind enduring a pleasant conversation with God)
    Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. …11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

    Its obvious that you have never had any military training and thus are unfamiliar with this concept, otherwise you would understand that discipline has in mind training and that training often requires the kind of discipline Heb 12 has in mind. The purpose of discipline is to produce something of value. I am so tired of “sissy-pants” Christian brothers who have this unbiblical concept of God as being some sweet old harmless benign grand-daddy who wouldn’t harm a fly. Its no wonder Christianity today has the whimpy reputation it has in our culture, just something for children and old ladies. My brother, how do you handle the harder sayings of Jesus, Paul and Peter? Sorry for ranting but I was shocked by your PC view of God and your not dealing with Heb 12 in context, and just had to respond.

    Comment by Stephen | May 3, 2008 | Reply

  4. Stephen -

    Thanks for commenting. Though you say you “respectfully” disagree with me, your second paragraph seems to imply that you may not have very much respect for Christians like me at all. Rest assured, I am a hardcore Christian who is fully devoted to the Lord Jesus. However, there are some things in your Mark Driscoll-like rant I would like to address. :)

    If we can let “scripture interpret itself,” then we have to address the issue of persectution among the first century church which is the reason for Paul’s (or whoever wrote Hebrews) exhortation to endurance. He’s talking about endurance of persecution. People were dying for their faith. Look at 12:3. But notice that the type of endurance and pain in this chapter has to do with the hardship of serving one another even to the point of death. It’s not power over another we’re talking about here; it’s power under: the self-sacrifice of service. And the discipline of chapter 12 doesn’t have to include pain. Like many Christians, you seem to assume that discipline involves punishment – something the passage does not state. What we do find is the writer of Hebrews encouraging Christians to lay down their lives and submit to the authority and leadershp of Christ – discipleship. And hence, the word discipline.

    “Its obvious that you have never had any military training and thus are unfamiliar with this concept, otherwise you would understand that discipline has in mind training and that training often requires the kind of discipline Heb 12 has in mind.” I’m shocked that you know me so well from this one post. :) No, I haven’t been in the military…but you may find it interesting that I’ve have pastored and counselled many men who have been in the armed forces. And they sounded just like you when I first met them. You may find it interesting based on what you say about God that the single most difficult thing that these men have to deal with as Christians is the fact that they don’t feel close to God. They honestly can’t believe that he might want a relationship with them outside of mandates, directives, and “perfomance training” exercises. In the end, they believe God only loves them when they perform a task to his satisfaction. I can’t help but think that maybe you feel the same way. And so, I’d like to tell you what I tell them: God doesn’t love you because you perform correctly for him. He loves you regardless of performance. Passing God through a personal matrix of your miltary training gives a partial view of God at best. He’s more interested in you as a person rather than as someone who’s a “good little soldier.” I know that may seem like radical idea.

    If you’re interested in how I might handle some of the “harder sayings” of the Bible, feel free to ask, though you might find my stance on personal holiness is quite stringent. But my personal holiness stems from my understadning that God loves me unconditionally, rather than from a view of God as a stern taskmaster. I serve him because he loves me, not because I’m trying to get him to approve of me. He already does…and he approves of you as well.

    Sam

    Comment by Sam | May 3, 2008 | Reply

  5. Thank you for your words Sam, and I am sorry about the tone of my letter. I happened upon your Heb 12 post while I was upset about the increasingly pagan culture we live in, and how Christianity is so watered down, as to be ineffective in its influence today. So I was in that frame of mind when I read your post, and it seemed to take a soft (watered-down) look at a scripture passage that reassures those who call God, Father, that God lovingly uses discpline to grow us. The manner of “discpline” is perhaps where we disagree. And thats ok with me. I am satisfied now from your response that were not making light of God’s word, as I initially feared, and I stand corrected, and even, disciplined :-) I agree with you that our relationship with Father God is not performanced-based but relation-based. Which is not unlike how I relate to my children. Though I may insist on certain behavior from them, I love them no matter the ebb and flow of their performance. Sorry again brother for my misunderstanding. -Steve

    Comment by Stephen | May 8, 2008 | Reply

  6. Steve –

    Thanks for returning! No hard fellings at all. I feel like you do occaisionally in regards to watered down treatments of the gospel. I can see how you might find that in my post. And it’s fine to disagree with me about the discipline issue. I honestly want to believe that if God can speak to me (and I think he does) that he would chose that option first. That’s how I would relate to my kids – and it seems how you would relate to yours as well…simply because we love them unconditionally. Why break them when we can nurture them?

    You raise an important question concerning how Christians should live their life. Should they be wishy-washy or agressive? Everybody has to find their own approach, though I think solid Christians should have a backbone of steel. But as I’ve grown in the Lord, I feel like he requires a softness to form around that steel. The steel is for convictions of holiness and truth. But the outer softness is for others – Christian brothers and for unbelievers who see God as unapproachable. You and I are their bridge of “approachableness” to God.

    God bless you in your Christian walk. You sound like a stand-up kind of guy…

    Sam

    Comment by Sam | May 8, 2008 | Reply

  7. Pain teaches us somethings. Ok my son I told him not 2 touch the stove because he will get burned. Well I just taught him right an wrong. Now its his choice 2 make. Now choosed 2 do wrong an burned himself. Like a good father I take care of him an confort him but he won’t stop cryin.now I wish I had a fast way 2 releave him of this pain but there isn’t any. Don’t worrie just the tip of his finger. Now during his pain he relied on me like I would relie on God 2 help me through my pains and struggles. Now when he burned himself his inocents was gone about wrong an right. Now he won’t touch the stove any more unless I’m there with him. He Learned that his dad will teach him right an wrong an 2 keep him out any harms way just like God teaches us about sin an good.in the end it will be our choice do his will or not.

    Well I like also say that my God my lord Jesus Christ my savior is good all the time. An like 2 add that we r molded thru pain an tested everyday by satin 2 proove 2 God that we failed but thru the blood of Christ an with our hearts of repentence we r clean as if it never happened but we must forgive our debtors so we maybe forgiving. My brother job had no choice in the matter of being tested but he gave glory 2 God an God became victorius thru Jobs life.

    Our pain teaches us molds us an sometime we have no choice but keep walkin foward an let God give us strength an only by his strength alone.

    Comment by geo.d | September 10, 2008 | Reply

  8. geo.d –

    I understand where you are coming from, though I can’t say I agree with everything you write, specifically for two reasons. First, though we experience pain by living in a fallen world, that doesn’t mean that God ordains that pain for the lesson it may bring. That’s the point of my post – other parts of scripture state that God would rather teach us first hand rather than use secondary causes to get out attention.

    Second, the beauty of having God as Father is that he is different than human fathers – he’s better. Earthly fathers (like myself) can only attempt to protect their children. God can bring “correction and discipline exclusive from harm.” In other words God doesn’t have to cause pain to bring correction. That’s a worldly concept foreign to the Kingdom of God.

    Comment by Sam | September 11, 2008 | Reply

  9. God does not ordain but permits 4 he is in control of everything.all the pain the world go thru God can prevent from happening why is that? A all lovin God would let us go thru struggles an pain? Why please answer this in opion an with the word of God oh don’t forget he is the all knowing all present an above all. Beside that I’m a sinner but I repent why can he make us rich or just skip the whole thing of life an just save us the time suffering. I mean he already knows who gonna be faithful 2 him. Why? I ask u

    One last thing I don’t agree that Hebrew 12 should be removed. Every man should not just live with bread alone but what process out the mouth of God. Every word of God I take serious an every letter.

    Comment by geo.d | September 11, 2008 | Reply

  10. I disagree due to the tone of Hebrews 12. Considering verse 11: 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. (NIV)

    Your essay was good, but from this we can at least deduce that the writer of Hebrews disagrees with you. He says “no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful.”

    Painless discipline doesn’t exist according to Hebrews 12:11.

    -Shaun

    Comment by shaun | March 26, 2009 | Reply

  11. Hi Shaun –

    Thanks for commenting. You’re understanding of Hebrews 12 is fairly common and many Bible teachers would back your understanding of it. However, from what I can tell, the background of Hebrews plays a part in understanding the writer’s words. The Jewish-Christian faction the book is written to were probably in Jerusalem or maybe Rome. Either way, they were under intense persecution for their adoption of the Christian message. They endured significant repercussions for their faith. We don’t really have those today, so we (using our exposure to natural theology among another things) think of things that would cause us suffering and assume that the Book of Hebrews is talking about that – tragedy, natural disaster, disease, physical pain, etc. It helps us cope with the meaninglessness of things like that.

    Another thing to consider is that the “pain” of discipline, at least for these first century Christians had to do with economic persecution, cultural marginalization, and government oppression. Those may not cause physical pain, but they bring shame, poverty, and ridicule. And that’s a part of pain as well. It may also be the case that as God deals with us, we feel the pain of conviction. That’s certainly a side effect of discipline, but who said that involves punishment?

    Just some thoughts to consider.

    Sam

    Comment by Sam | March 26, 2009 | Reply

  12. PLEASE answer this question for me. How does God discipline? Please give me examples. This came up in our Bible Study and no one could give an example. Like WHAT are some things that He does to discipline us. I’ve been reading about this all afternoon, and all I see is that God disciplines us. Guilt? Not allowed to do something? Do you see what I’m asking? I don’t think that God gives me cancer to discipline me, or let’s my spouse die to discipline me–though those could be used by God to grow me spiritually. I’d really prefer that this not go on the comment page, just a private answer from you. Thanks. ams

    Comment by ams | October 18, 2009 | Reply


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