Purging my soul…one blog at a time.

Spiritual Gifts and Reformed Theology: Can They Co-exist?

 A little while back, I told some fellow bloggers here that I didn’ t think charismatic gifts (the traditional 1 Corinthians list) and traditional Reformed theology were compatible. Though you could write a book on this topic, I do want to address some the issues I believe make them difficult to reconcile. As always, you’re free to disagree and comment. Please know that I am writing this assuming a basic understanding of both topics at hand. I won’t be stopping for definitions and the like. I’ll handle the issues in this order: 1) allegorization of miracles, 2) the Isaiah gift list, 3) confining spiritual gifts to conversion, and 4) modern expressions of these issues.

1) allegorization of miracles: Even though the gifts of the Spirit were still common during the postbiblical period (even by “scaffolding model” timelines), clergy began to substitute allegorical interpretations for actual miraculous events and charismata. The need for miracles and spiritual gifts began to be seen as an elementary approach to Christianity, similar to the way the Alexandrian school taught that literal interpretation of scripture was beneath a mature believer. Rather, God’s acts of creation and the ”healing” of the soul (conversion) became the true miracles of the church. Augustine, in his Homilies on the Gospel of John, stated, “The Samaritans had waited for no sign, they believed simply His word.” Emphasizing faith that does not require miracles, he stated that mature Christians have “believed on Christ through the gospel; we have seen no signs, none do we demand.” Earlier, disgusted with commoners’ use of amulets to cure disease, Augustine stated that we should “rejoice” when someone is sick “tossed about with fever and pains” in hopes that the gospel “placed at the heart” will “heal it from sin.” Sin was the most urgent “disease” facing humanity. The Reformers picked this line of reasoning up.

2) Substitution of the Christological gifts of Isaiah 11 for the 1 Corinthians 12 list: Around the same time, clergy began to teach regularly on the gifts in Isaiah 11:2-3. The Isaiah list (wisdom, understanding, counsel, might, knowledge, piety, and the fear of the Lord) became the standard gift “list” associated with the Christian walk. Though it is difficult to speculate exactly why these gifts were chosen over the 1 Corinthians list, some reasons do come to mind. For one, the Isaiah list prophetically describes the giftings of Christ. The church at this time was highly involved in defining Christology against heretical movements and the Isaiah gifts reflected that concern. Secondly, the gifts in Isaiah had less of a supernatural element to them. Wisdom, for example, has a more natural element to it than say, tongues. Counsel could be gained through interaction with creation – the Augustinian vehicle for God’s self-revelation – as opposed to prophecy which required direct revelation and inner experience. Third, the 1 Corinthians gifts appealed to the direct experience of the individual believer – something most ecclesiastical authorities believed was dangerous, particularly after the Montanism “scare.”

The Isaiah list didn’t replace the 1 Corinthians list overnight. Beginning with the Alexandrian school, spiritual gifts were adapted to accommodate theological beliefs. Origen cited language, wisdom, and knowledge as gifts only available to “worthy receivers.” Ambrose, describing the sacrament of confirmation, emphasized the reception of the “sevenfold gift” – listing the traits of Christ in Isaiah 11. Augustine followed suit. Gregory the Great made this substitution permanent. In his famous Pastoral Rule, Gregory wrote a tremendous amount about love and self-control but steered away from any recognition of the power gifts listed in 1 Corinthians. In his commentary on Job, Gregory explained that the seven gifts act as armor against spiritual attack and other evils. In a homily on Pentecost, Gregory specifically addressed the gifts in 1 Corinthians, but in the postbiblical age, he stated they are considered the gift of the clergy alone. Parishioners would do better to focus on the seven gifts that promote fruitful Christian living rather than power gifts that could possibly lead to pride.

We find the consummation of the allegorical and sevenfold gift traditions in the Reformed tradition. Luther’s German translation of the hymn, Veni Creator Spiritus, while referencing the seven gifts, allegorically interprets the gift of tongues as preaching: “You are with sevenfold gifts/The finger of God’s right hand/You deliver the Father’s Word speedily/With tongues into all the lands.”  These ideas are still reflected in Reformed theology today.

3) Confining spiritual gifts to conversion: By the time of the Reformation, Christian mysticism had developed into several different strands. The mystical treatises previous to Luther’s time always emphasized the availability of God’s presence in a post-conversion state, similar to the doctrines of sanctification and the baptism in the Holy Spirit of the Holiness and Pentecostal traditions. But Luther consciously rejected these mystics and chose to draw from the work of John Tauler and the anonymous Theologia Germanica instead. Both of these works (and subsequently Luther) taught that all the gifts you need you receive at conversion alone. There is no post-conversion experience and the gifts these works cite are the Isaiah list passed down through Scholasticism. This is really the first place that the idea of “one baptism, many fillings” shows up in Christian history. Any experience a believer can have originates strictly at the salvation moment. There is no baptism in the Holy Spirit other than what the Holy Spirit does to enforce the saving work of Christ.

Because of all of this, Luther’s commentaries pass over most passages that describe Jesus’ healings in the gospels. Miracles have passed away and “no new and special revelation or miracle is necessary” since an “immeasurably greater and more glorious work and miracle” is found in salvation. Tongues is no longer given since the church speaks all languages and only “fanatical spirits and sectarians” would seek such a gift. Luther, like Gregory before him,  attaches merit to not seeking spiritual gifts since “nobody should presume to exercise it if it is not necessary or required.” The inference here is that since God determines all detailed events in life by his sovereignty, the need for signs and wonders should never arise. A miracle would contradict the natural order and ultimately contradict God’s predetermined will.

Calvin towed the line, stating that healing “had its beginning from the Apostles, which afterwards, however, was turned into superstition, as the world almost always degenerates into corruptions.” His cessation sentiments are similar to those before him: “[The possibility of spiritual gifts] either does not exist today or is less commonly seen.” Counterfeit miracles are determined by their association with wrong doctrine rather than their supernatural nature. For Calvin, the more charismatic gifts of 1 Corinthians have mutated into more permanent gifts of the intellect – tongues is seen as the ability to preach in a foreign language and the gift of discernment is the ability to rationally determine false doctrine. That sounds alot like the Reformed tendencies of today to me.

4) Modern expressions of these issues: Charismatics maintained a distinct post-conversion experience until the rise of the The Third Wave movement in Pentecostalism. Beginning in the 1980s with its influence continuing well into the 1990s, the basic premise of Third Wave groups is to embrace the move of the Holy Spirit, particularly the aspects of healing, deliverance, intimacy of worship, and spiritual warfare without disrupting the general church structures or denominations of which they are apart. The phrase was coined by C. Peter Wagner, who spearheaded the doctrinal emphasis of the movement. On a practical level, however, John Wimber and the Vineyard Movement were the driving force behind the Third Wave phenomenon. Wimber, once an associate of Chuck Smith, would eventually separate from Calvary Chapel due to his emphasis on spiritual gifts while choosing to retain a Reformed approach to doctrinal issues. Similarly, Wagner cites a Reformed-based approach to spiritual gifts in describing Third Wave doctrine. This is particularly evident in the Third Wave belief that the baptism in the Holy Spirit only occurs at conversion with multiple fillings that may resemble what Pentecostals would normally consider a second experience. Once again, “one baptism, many fillings” is directly imported from the Reformed tradition. Also, common the Third Wavers is the absence of the gift of tongues. Though the Third Wave movement made some charismatic manifestations acceptable in mainline denominations, it aggressively minimized the distinctive phenomena that had characterized the Pentecostal movement since its inception. Following its Reformed roots, the Third Wave essentially made Pentecostalism non-Pentecostal.

Many theologians, although accepting limited roles of experience, reject a secondary post conversion event. James Dunn, Max Turner, and Veli-Matti Kärkkäinen restrict forms of Spirit baptism to the conversion experience. Yet, they still talk about how “charismatic” they are. Unfortunately, even some Pentecostal theologians have gone along with the crowd. Assemblies of God theologian Gordon Fee followed the Reformed tendency to see sanctification as merely a “metaphor for conversion.” To me, that’s just sad. So even though charismatic manifestations are now acceptable, all historical attempts to integrate spiritual gifts into Reformed theology have consistently resulted in the diluting of spiritual gifts. Reformed attempts to integrate spiritual gifts leave charismatic Christianity a mile wide and an inch deep. History proves this to be true. And though it’s not the popular opinion, I just can’t accept that. I can’t help but feel that Christian spirituality is meant to be deep and event-laden. To minimize the charismata is remove one of the main points of intimacy between us and God. Though others see the gifts as expendable, I’ll take them every time. Can spiritual gifts and Reformed theology co-exist? If historical precedent is any indication, the answer is no.

April 9, 2008 - Posted by Sam | Christianity, God, Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, Reformed theology, calvinism, religion, spirituality, theology | , , , , , , , , | 17 Comments

17 Comments »

  1. Hello. Thank you for posting this. It appears quite clear that you would happily accept the label of “Pentecostal,” correct?

    Several questions come to mind that may help me understand your essay a bit clearer:

    How do you define “Reformed Theology”? Your use of the term in this essay seems quite lose and ambiguous, though I may be misunderstanding your intention. Are you referring to simply the essential five points of Calvinism or essentially to conservative evangelicalism? Your usage seems to overlap.

    Would you consider your definition of “Third Wave” to be somewhat subjective, as several prominent leaders within the “Third Wave”/”Empowered Evangelical” movement have stated that within this movement there is some measure of disagreement over a secondary “baptism of the Spirit” and on the emphasis that speaking in tongues plays (cf. Dr. Sam Storms, Dr. Wayne Grudem, Dr. Jack Deere, Rich Nathan, and many of the other leading Vineyard guys)? I could provide several quotes from well known works within this movement that appear to contradict what your saying within this article.

    Could you provide a reference for what you have mentioned regarding Dr. Fee? I have noted that it is often a bit difficult to nail him down regarding sanctification… perhaps I have overlooked a journal article or something from one of his books. It has been awhile since I read some of his earlier books. Besides his fantasticPauline Christology (which I have yet to reread), the last book I think I read was To What End Exegesis. Perhaps I missed something.

    The reason this is of interest to me is because I would consider myself essentially Reformed… meaning I hold to the five points of Calvinism and the five solas of the Reformation. I do not, however, hold to paedobaptism, amillennialism, Replacement Theology, and Cessationism, which tend to go “hand in hand.” I am also a Continuationist, believing in all of the spiritual gifts and certainly the “filling of the Spirit,” though I would find myself inbetween the typical Evangelical and the classic Pentecostal (more time would be required to explain).

    Speaking strictly in relation to exegesis and hermeneutics, I do not believe there is anyything inconsistent with being both Reformed and a Continuationist. I am also deeply involved in the prayer movement and have spent quite a bit of time within the IHOP/Mike Bickle stream (similar to Dr. Sam Storms I suppose).

    Your further explanation would be wonderful and would certainly be appreciated! May the Lord richly bless you and your studies!

    In Him alone,
    luke g.
    *be a forerunner*
    emerging rural

    Comment by luke g. | April 11, 2008 | Reply

  2. Luke –

    Thanks for the chance to clarify.

    “How do you define “Reformed Theology”? Your use of the term in this essay seems quite lose and ambiguous…”

    Good observation – yes I use a “elastic” definition here. The only theological perspective that seems to mesh well with charismatic gifts, to me, comes from a more anthropocentric, and cooperative style of faith. Charismatics throughout history have used words like sanctification, perfection, deification, union, theosis, etc. But there are all talking about the same thing. Though I’m not condoning synergism, I am saying that humans need to be able to pursue God and that any systematic theology, if it is to appeal to the charismatic element in religion, must compensate for this. The Reformed tradition generally sees such anthropocentrism as infringing upon God’s purposes and plans. Though strict Calvinist doctrine surely removes this possiblity. other moderate evangelical forms, that adopt two or three of TULIP’s premises, usually take the “spirit at conversion” approach as well.

    “Would you consider your definition of “Third Wave” to be somewhat subjective…”

    Yes, there are those within the Third Wave movement that feel differently than Wimber and Wagner. However, they started the movement and my point was that both came from Reformed dotrinal traditions. The end result was that though there are those in the Third Wave movement now that hold to a traditional “second experience,” the possiblity of Spirit baptism being linked to conversion didn’t even exist in the charismaic movement until Reformed based doctrine began to shape it. I’m not putting words in their mouth – they are the ones that marginalized the gift of tongues. I’m just pointing it out. When the “weirdest” gift goes, the others have a better chance of following when they meet resistance.

    “Could you provide a reference for what you have mentioned regarding Dr. Fee?”

    Sure – It is in “God’s Empowering Presence”, p. 859. Fee, like the others I mentioned, tend to allow the Pauline epistles to define Spirit baptism and read their conclusions from Paul back into the gospel narratives. I believe this is inappropriate – If anything, Luke-Acts should be used to understand what Paul was saying about Spirit baptism. Though Luke-Acts clearly gives a second experience. Paul, in developing pneumatology further, explains the role of the Spirit in conversion. But that doesn’t mean that Paul relegates the Spirit’s role to salvation alone. Luke-Acts is pretty clear that Spirit baptism is missional, not soteriological. Fee has been criticized for this preference, rather than taking the gospel narratives seriously. His response to those criticisms may be reflected in his more recent publications that minimize the distinction.

    “Speaking strictly in relation to exegesis and hermeneutics, I do not believe there is anything inconsistent with being both Reformed and a Continuationist.”

    The key here is “Speaking strictly in relation to exegesis and hermeneutics.” I’m not talking about biblical textual issues here. That’s not my area of interest and I go to other specialist for that. What I am attempting to do here is trace for you and other readers that fact that when Reformed doctrinal tendencies attempt to incorporate charismatic elements, they end up modifying them or replacing them for something more governable so as to not eclipse the primacy of the Word of God. That collision betwen Word and Spirit in church history has always resulted in the gifts of the Spirit being marginalized. My survey of the Reformed tradition above addresses that isseue. The Third Wave seems to be heading that way as well.

    Maybe we’ll get it right this time, but if historical trends remain true, we’ll see the charismatic gifts diminish as they continue to go mainstream. The Reformed tendencies in the Third Wave movement make that theologically possible.

    Feel free to comment back…

    Sam

    Comment by Sam | April 12, 2008 | Reply

  3. In your studies, have you had the opportunity to read Sam Storms? He defends the Calvinistic Charismatic position. http://www.amazon.com/Convergence-Spiritual-Journeys-Charismatic-Calvinist/dp/0977173909/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209061314&sr=8-2

    Comment by Kyle Wise | April 24, 2008 | Reply

  4. Kyle -

    No I haven’t – thanks for the link. I’ll check it out. :)

    Comment by Sam | April 24, 2008 | Reply

  5. Sam,
    Thanks for your response. I do have some further questions/ comments for you. I will try and get them to you shortly. As Kyle Wise mentioned, I really encourage you to check out Dr. Storm’s works. Not only did he write Convergence: Spiritual Journeys of a Charismatic Calvinist, he was a contributor to Are Miraculous Gifts for Today?, and author of The Beginner’s Guide to Spiritual Gifts. Dr. Storm’s also authored Chosen for Life: The Case for Divine Election, one of the best explanations of a Reformed perspective on election. Within each of these works, Dr. Storm’s is committed to charismatic experience and reformed theology. I hghly recommend.

    Blessings!

    Comment by Luke Geraty | April 29, 2008 | Reply

  6. Thanks Luke for the links as well. Maybe I’m misrepresenting the Reformed charismatic tradition, but the examples above still hold significance for me because they represent where Reformed traditions have taken charismatic giftings in the past. I certainly will check out Sam Storms though. And I also would enjoy reading another response from you.

    I think it’s important to say that though I don’t agree with the approach of the people in my post toward spiritual gifts, they are all wonderful Christians and the scholars I mentioned as well are excellent in their respective disciplines. Maybe that’s why it’s hard to point out things like the above. I really don’t mean to criticize their stance on other issues in Christianity – in fact I agree with some of them. however, that doesn’t mean I should accept, for example, Fee’s interpretation of the baptism in the Spirit just because he is an excellent exegete of Pauline tradition. I certainly don’t have everything “right” by any stretch. But I do see casue for concern in the Third Wave generation of scholarship where the gifts are concerned.

    Sam

    Comment by Sam | April 30, 2008 | Reply

  7. I think in the post Sam is highlighting how historically the Reformed camp has treated the gifts of the Spirit AND the logical inconsitency in believing in the omni-causality of God and the firm belief that the Charismatic has traditionally held that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the empowerment (through the gifts mind you) is available and should be pursued by everyone.

    I think it is AWESOME that Piper, Storms, and others who old such views of God’s sovereignty (that he is the ultimate cause of ALL things) can also respect and embrace the charismata, but they are the minority in their tradition. And they obviously must not believe that it is for all believers unless God is gracious enough to “elect” them to have such gifts or such an experience.

    And that is the problem that Sam has pointed out in the Third Wave movement: it’s not really Charismatic. And this is because reformed “charismatics” have to fall on their predisposed beliefs of God and ASSUME that while some believers may have such a Charismatic experience, many will not according to God’s predestined plan.

    So can one be reformed and embrace the Charismatic tradition of the gifts of the Spirit? Absolutely! And I’m thankful for that. But, will they overtime submerge their Charismatic beliefs of God’s gracious outpouring to the omni-causality of God? Everytime. And once again, it becomes who has been providentially chosen to receive such a glorious blessing…because it’s surely not available to everyone.

    Comment by Jonathan | May 1, 2008 | Reply

  8. Jonathan –

    Thanks for weighing in. You address something in your comments that I really didn’t in my post but adds significance to the debate: the impact of omni-causal sovereignty upon our ability to receive the gifts. You expose the contradiction well – if the charismatic factions of Christianity have always assumed that one could strive towards charismatic experience, how can Reformed theology (in condemining all forms of synergism) appropriate the charismata if they must be sought by humanity?

    Charismatic groups have called this cooperative effort for experience all sorts of names: the baptism in the Spirit, the second blessing, perfection, theosis, deification, union and the like. All of these (where the gifts originate as a second experience after conversion in those traditions) are dismissed in Reformed theology. This is simply because Reformed theology cannot allow that level of synergy/cooperation to exist. So subsequently, all charismata must have their origin in the only place left: conversion. And that’s exactly what we see historically happening – from Luther to Wagner.

    Comment by Sam | May 2, 2008 | Reply

  9. Hmm. I really would have to say that this seems to be a very narrow understanding of the Reformed position of human responsibility. Synergism is generally in relation to certain aspects of soteriology and I would have a hard time finding support within the Reformed tradition for what you seem to assume is essentially true of the Reformed tradition across the board.

    Perhaps you are referring more to hyper-Calvinism? I mean, as far as I’m aware, most of the “Charismatic Calvinists” that I know have an obviously high view of God’s sovereignty, but not at the expense of man’s responsibility to actively seek after the filling of the Holy Spirit and the gifts that accompany.

    Maybe we’re all just bad Calvinists :) Yet, I don’t think many of the Reformed “fathers” would disagree with the role that man plays.

    Okay… sorry to waste anyone’s time. I simply find this article to be quite interesting… I’ll have a more substantial contribution as soon as I get a chance.

    Blessings to all!

    Comment by luke g. | May 3, 2008 | Reply

  10. Hey Luke –

    Thanks for coming back. Let me clarify something here that seems to be confusing. In the post above, I spend time discussing that fact that the Reformed tradition relegates the reception of spiritual gifts to conversion alone (pt. 3). Because Reformed tradition places the giving of charismata WITHIN the boundaries of soteriology, any synergism required to seek the gifts in any sense is inappropriate. Your own Reformed tradition refuses to let you have your cake and eat it too. It’s an issue of sequence. To seek the gifts and the filling of the Holy Spirit outside of conversion is to deny your Reformed hertiage that sees the filling of the Spirit as a metaphor for salvation. Yet, to say that the gifts can be sought as part of the conversion events leads to synergism – something the Reformed tradition also rejects. It’s that inconsistency that make the gifts and the Reformed tradition incompatible.

    Sam

    Comment by Sam | May 3, 2008 | Reply

  11. Sam, your blog is by far the one that makes me think the most ;-) I find myself going home and thinking about what you said, and coming back a week later to respond only to find that you have moved on to a new post.

    Keep it up!

    Comment by Robert | May 9, 2008 | Reply

  12. Thanks, bro – you’re such a kind soul…

    I am surprised that this post didn’t stir up more debate. Lots of views coming from search engines but few comments. I can’t tell if that’s because everyone thinks I’m crazy or if they just have nothing to add (other than Luke above who has had some good points). If the two systems are incompatible, why do we have such a hard time admitting to that? Maybe I’m looking for something that’s not there…but it sure looks like something to me. There’s just too much coincidence to be merely, well, coincidence…

    As always, thanks for the encouragement.

    Comment by Sam | May 10, 2008 | Reply

  13. After reading — and skimming — through these posts, I can see that I am not nearly educated enough to bandy about with words like soteriology and such like. But I am curious about some of the ideas that seem to be hiding underneath the surface, here.

    One idea is that if a gift doesn’t present itself immediately, it must not have been there at all. Why can’t Ephesians 1 be literally true? Why can’t it be true that all the gifts are ours upon conversion, the indelible dyeing that comes with the Holy Spirit in His baptism, immersion and saturation of His presence, bring all He is and has to a new believer? If a particular manifestation of the Spirit’s indwelling presence comes later, who’s to say it wasn’t there all the time, even in the believer’s infancy? Even Mozart didn’t play the piano, let alone write a sonata, when he was 5 weeks old.

    Another is this idea that we are all sadly mistaken if we think that some believers will not be gifted in certain ways. Why is that mistaken? 1 Corinthians 12-14 seems to indicate that the Spirit in fact does choose who gets what, and in what amounts. Paul seems to be saying that if we ask for anything we should be asking for love, and be at peace with how the Spirit moves within the body. “We can’t all be hands,” Paul said. “We can’t all be eyes.” Some of the gits listed in the new testament seem more wildly supernatural, like healing and prophesying. Some seem more self-oriented, ecstatic worship type gifts, like tongues speaking. Some seem very parental, like pastoring. Some seem pretty humble and unseen, like giving and serving. Since I don’t hang with Charismatics I’m just curious — does everybody pray for the really supernatural and ecstatic gifts, and never for the humble ones? That’s kind of what it sounds like.

    I can hardly be classified as a Calvinist, but I have to say, total depravity, election and security of salvation seem pretty well covered in the Bible. But so do some Arminian points seem to be (unlimited atonement and the resistance of some to God’s grace). I always thought Reformed Theology was mostly this high view of God, and Arminian theology the elevated view of humans. The Charismata fit in with either view, just differently. By the one, Reformed, they are manifested in a believer entirely by the discretion of the Holy Spirit. I suppose for the Arminian, the person must pray for it and somehow God must then deliever, since it was requested?

    I would love to understand your response, would you be willing to “talk down” a little bit to me?

    Comment by joanne guarnieri | August 21, 2008 | Reply

  14. Joanne –

    That’s for commenting. These are some great questions. I’ll do my best to answer them plainly. After all, I’m still just a Southern boy… :)

    “Why can’t Ephesians 1 be literally true? Why can’t it be true that all the gifts are ours upon conversion?…If a particular manifestation of the Spirit’s indwelling presence comes later, who’s to say it wasn’t there all the time, even in the believer’s infancy?”

    Great question – and a common one. The issue here is with how NT books interact with one another. Ephesians 1 is a great place to start. You’re right, Paul says that the Holy Spirit has a significant role in our salvation. I’m certainly not denying that. But the book of Acts also gives us several accounts where something more was expected for believers than what they received at conversion. Obviously Acts 2 – Pentecost – is an example of this. But the most revealing passage is Acts 19:1-5. Paul meets some confessing Christians (in Ephesus, no less) but still asked them if they have received the Holy Spirit. They said, “we don’t even know who the Holy Spirit is.” He lays hands on them and the more “ecstatic/supernatural” gifts manifested. Now this is the exact same Paul that wrote about the role of the Holy Spirit in conversion in Ephesians 1. For Paul (as it should be for us) the Holy Spirit functioned in BOTH capacities for the Ephesians – salvation AND in a secondary experience of some sort. He didn’t feel the need to keep one and dismiss the other, yet most folks today feel like they have to choose. But we don’t – the Holy Spirit is not limited to one role in the Christian life. I suppose you could say that those gifts resided in a state of infancy, but, once again, that’s not how Paul acted in Acts 19. They were missing and required and second type of filling. If we take the actions of Paul seriously in this passage, we must admit that something else was necessary for the Ephesians. Otherwise we would not have both contexts of Ephesians 1 and Acts 19.

    “Another is this idea that we are all sadly mistaken if we think that some believers will not be gifted in certain ways. Why is that mistaken?…Since I don’t hang with Charismatics I’m just curious — does everybody pray for the really supernatural and ecstatic gifts, and never for the humble ones? That’s kind of what it sounds like.”

    That’s not the case at all – charismatic believers believe in all those giftings you mention, from the ecstatic to the ordinary. They are all gifts and they are all given by God. The problem here (addressed by this post) is that throughout church history, those more supernatural gifts have been marginalized becasue they were more intense and lead to authority issues for the clergy. 1 Corinthians talks about that exact scenario – the gifts should be tempered with love and grace. But nowhere does Paul say that they should stop because they were being abused or that, for example, prophecy is “dangerous.” He obviously didn’t feel that way since he says that he’s thankful he spends more time speaking in tongues more than anybody! To me, that sounds like a proponent, not a critic, of the charismatic gifts.

    “The Charismata fit in with either view, just differently. By the one, Reformed, they are manifested in a believer entirely by the discretion of the Holy Spirit. I suppose for the Arminian, the person must pray for it and somehow God must then deliever, since it was requested?”

    Yes, all the gifts are obviously given by God – their supernatural origins attest to that. But just because they are given to the body of Christ, doesn’t mean that they somehow manifest in a timetable of divine mystery. Some would argue the same for salvation: if unlimited atonement is true, why doesn’t everyone receive salvation? They have to be willing to admit they need it and accept the work of Christ of the cross. The gifts are supposed to be practical – available to each believer in times of need and for personal devotion. Now, some people think they are given at conversion and that they’ll show up when neccessary. But, once again, Paul didn’t do that in Acts 19. When the Ephesians admitted they had not undergone any type of secondary experience, Paul didn’t say “Oh well, I suppose you’ll receive it when God ‘distributes it to each one as He wills.” :) No, he laid hands on them and specifically petitioned God for that experince right then and there. So if we take Paul seriously in that passage, there seems to be nothing wrong with asking God for one gift over another, particularly when we feel we need it. The Bible also says that the one who asks will receive. That’s a little more agressive than some Christains might be, but if he says we can ask, then I don’t think there’s some greater maturity in not asking. That’s false humility at its best. If anything, that’s seems contrary to the Word (1 John 5:14-17 comes to mind). God likes an interactive faith, one where he knows your desires and needs and walks with you through life. He doesn’t want a robot – he wants a son or a daughter. And sons and daughters ask when they need something.

    Hope that helps. Thanks for commenting

    Sam

    Comment by Sam | August 22, 2008 | Reply

  15. Thanks, you’ve given me food for thought (and thank you for the simple language, I really appreciate that!)

    I still have some questions. There is a whole lot that comprises what people refer to as reformed theology. I guess my definition is pretty narrow: the Calvinists’ five rebuttal points to Arminian thinking.

    Among those five rebuttal points I don’t see any conflict with having the more ecstatic and/or hair raising gifts (instant healing, prophesying the future, discerning hidden things). Reaching a little farther out, reformed theology teaches that every person who is born again has the Holy Spirit. I don’t see anything in the Arminian points that would necessarily deny that (there is the implication that a person might lose the Holy Spirit, but that’s not the same thing). If one has the Holy Spirit, one has everything the Spirit has, since God doesn’t parcel out a litle piece of Himself here, and another little piece there.

    I do get what you’re saying, that one must ask. I agree that God desires and promotes a two-way relationship (it’s the only real kind of relationship). And I think reformed theology would agree with the thinking that we must ask God — how could anyone not believe that after how specific Jesus is about prayer? Still, my reading of 1 Corinthians 12-14 is Paul admonishing believers to ask for love, not showy gifts.

    Reformed theology, best I can tell, says that THE sign of being born again is openly confessing Christ, and that was evident in all the born again stories in the NT. Very often people also spoke in tongues when receiving the Holy Spirit, but…is that true in every single case? I get the feeling that Charismatics say THE sign of being born again (which means, receiving the Holy Spirit) is speaking in tongues. I’ve met a couple of “used to be” Charismatics who felt very hurt that their fellow Charismatics questioned their faith, or even their salvation, because they never could speak in tongues (and you have to know these people prayed with tears that God would give them this gift). Nevertheless, whether tongues speaking is considered THE sign of salvation or not, speaking in tongues does not conflict with the reformed theologian’s view of salvation.

    (I am curious, though, why speaking in tongues seems to be so hugely important to Charismatics, to the point of being desired above all the other gifts as the sure sign of salvation? Paul never says that. He says that believing in your heart and confessing with your lips are the sure signs. In fact, though I am no Bible expert, I don’t find that being said anywhere…? Speaking in tongues would be so easy to fake!! Why not choose a gift that is impossible to fake?)

    Reformed theology does have a heirarchical authority / obedience element to it, but I thought the Charismatic / Arminian theology did too? I thought that any model which includes clergy and laity assumes authority in the clergy and obedience in the laity? Which would mean that, in this area, Calvinists and Arminians are differently the same.

    So is it really an authority issue? Or is it a “canon closed” issue? See, I think that’s where I’m not sure about the broader scope of Arminian thinking (which includes the Catholic church, with the popes speaking and writing new scripture these past two thousand years). That would maybe be the one place where reformed theology and the charismatic gift of speaking new scripture (is that a gift? Is that like prophet with a capital “P”?) would not be compatible, because the Reformers said that what we call the Bible is alone God’s inerrant, divinely inspired, Spirit-breathed Word (in other words, nothing can be added to it). But with the other gifts, and prophesying with a small “p,” I still can’t see incompatibility.

    Yes, one could disagree HOW the gifts would become manifest in a person, but the presence of the gifts themselves….how would that not be compatible with TULIP, and the belief that every born again person has the indwelling Holy Spirit? Also, Reformers do believe that though the Holy Spirit comes once to make God’s home in a person through the baptism of the Spirit, a fresh infilling of His power can and should come again and again. That doesn’t actually conflict with your description of Paul laying his hands on believers for an infilling of the Spirit Who would come in power (in whatever way He chose).

    Do I just not know enough about the differences between reformed and Arminian theologies?

    Comment by joanne guarnieri | August 25, 2008 | Reply

  16. Joanne –

    Sorry for the delay – you got lost in a deluge of other comments! I suppose that’s a good problem to have…

    I can’t address everything here but I’ll try to answer a few of them quickly. You’re welcome to respond for more clarification if neccessary.

    “Still, my reading of 1 Corinthians 12-14 is Paul admonishing believers to ask for love, not showy gifts.”

    Paul was pleading for temperance where the gifts we concerned. The fundamental mistake made in this passage is that love comes exclusive of “showy gifts.” Actually, Paul never discounts the gifts but in this “snapshot” of Corinthian church life, he’s saying that misused gifts are not okay. That’s still true today. The presence of godly love does not include the absence of charismata.

    “Very often people also spoke in tongues when receiving the Holy Spirit, but…is that true in every single case? I get the feeling that Charismatics say THE sign of being born again (which means, receiving the Holy Spirit) is speaking in tongues.”

    Very few Charismatics believe that tongues is a requirement for salvation – that’s not biblical. Most beleive it’s a part of being baptiszed in the Holy Spirit. Why do some speak in tongues and others don’t? That’s a difficult topic which I normally answer this way: in the many cases of leading others into the baptism in the HS, I have never seen someone not speak in tongues that desired to. If the session starts out, “Do I have to speak in tongues?” or “Is it necessary that I speak in tongues?” then I can guess that evidence of the event won’t include receiving a personal prayer language. The real question is: If the chance to receive that gift of spiritual language is available, why wouldn’t anyone want to receive it?

    “I am curious, though, why speaking in tongues seems to be so hugely important to Charismatics, to the point of being desired above all the other gifts as the sure sign of salvation?”

    Tongues is a big deal to charismatics because it’s get a ridiculous amount of attention from non-Charismatics. They spend their time answering questions about it which makes the non-Charismatic think that Charismatics are obsessed about tongues. But the non-Charismatics are the ones bringing it up! :) It’s a cycle of misunderstanding. All the gifts are equally important.

    “Do I just not know enough about the differences between reformed and Arminian theologies?”

    No – you’re doing just fine. However, not all charismatics are Arminians or vice versa. My point of this post was that based on historical precedent, Reformed theology has had a difficult time incorporating charismata because of the historical events I list in the post. It’s not really an issue of doctrine but rather an issue of history.

    Sam

    Comment by Sam | August 27, 2008 | Reply

  17. Okay, I understand that distinction — historical precedent versus doctrine. I agree with you that the historical reformed theology is rejection of the so-named charismatic gifts. Since I have currently been a member of a reformed type denomination it has become pretty clear that “this sort of thing” is not allowed. I once asked one of our associate pastors where he thought tongues and healings and prophecies came from, if not the Lord? He hemmed and hawed. But the question must be asked. I can understand ecstatic worship styles, such as tongues speaking, or falling in a dead faint, or weeping copiously, or some other outward manifestation of being overcome could be attributed to emotions. But healing? That goes beyond hysteria. Prophesy? I never could get a straight answer on that one.

    So culturally speaking, even, a reformed type of church would be stretched to include these other gifts that go beyond what we humans might come up with in our own strength (becasue, really, it’s clearly supernatural if it goes beyond what the very best human could come up with. If we meet a teacher who’s as smart as Einstein we can either acknowledge God’s power in the teacher, or we can say wow, really smart person, huh?! Really talented teacher)

    I’ve stumbled across people who call themselves cessationists — the charismata ceased after the apostle John died. Weird. Maybe the Jews were cessationists after the last prophet died? Boy, they must have been glad to meet Jesus and find out that miracles had come back online!!

    Anyway, you’ve answered the big question — reformed history and culture are what you’re talking about, not reformed theology.

    But then you mentioned “private prayer languages.” Huh?!?! I thought the whole point of speaking in tongues was public? Peter speaking in foreign tongues to all the different language groups in town for Pentecost? Praying in a group together with an interpreter there to tell everybody what the tongues speaker was saying? How did that become a “private” prayer language?

    Comment by joanne guarnieri | August 28, 2008 | Reply


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